dbdr12 hours ago
The novice said: "I will save my working files, but not my system and application files, as they can be always be reinstalled from their distribution disks."
The master made no reply.
The next day, the novice's disk crashed. Three days later, the novice was still reinstalling software.
If that's your situation, it might be worth backing up applications. However, there are better solutions that make this irrelevant. For instance, using NixOS, you can literally back up a single text file describing your system setup, and you can recreate the system from it automatically in minutes, guaranteed to be bit for bit identical.CJefferson11 hours ago
In my experience that works in box like 80% of the time. Which is great! But a backup is great in case it doesn’t.
If you are wondering ‘How are you getting that much failure’, it’s because I like to freeze older versions and they often decay for one reason or another (can’t get files for example)
edoceo5 hours ago
Backup the distribution files via mirror/proxy-mirror?
rolymath5 hours ago
I think the point was a single file for bit by bit replication. Managing infrastructure isn't good ROI here.
thenobsta2 hours ago
The single file bit-by-bit replication is only possible if those bits still exist and you have guarantees of it. Those bits are a hidden dependency unless you mirror them. Without a mirror it seems like replication will work most of the time, but will eventually fail in ways you don't want.
gnull11 hours ago
It's not guaranteed to be bit identical (the why of it is a can of worms), but it's identical enough for all practical purposes.
gf0009 hours ago
At the same time it is significantly more "hardware-change" resilient, since the same backed up config file (minus perhaps some very system specific lines that you may or may not have) can bring up a functionally equivalent working system on quite distinct other hardware as well.
orbital-decay7 hours ago
If your NixOS setup is not of hello-world kind, you typically have sops in it (or another secret management tool) and want to backup your age keys as well. They're necessarily separated from the main config tree so they don't end up leaking to the globally accessible nix store, and in the most typical case they're located in a 600 file outside the git repo. Forgetting to back it up is a classic NixOS gotcha and also a generalized version of this koan.
KnightHawk33 hours ago
Wouldn't you just re-encrypt the secrets with a new host key? That's what I usually do (boot once to generate keys, update the secrets, rebuild and switch remotely to the machine)
kbenson2 hours ago
You've missed the point. It doesn't matter that you can rebuild the system exactly, the example in question had little to do with how accurate the restores were, it had to do with the time to reinstall.
I too can entirely rebuild many systems simple from kickstarting a new one and applying an ansible playbook. Do I want to? No, that's too slow, and I might be doing this operation for tens or hundreds of systems.
We have multiple levels of backups. We use veeam for VM and physical backups of the entire system to a disk store that's also shipped off-site to an immutable store, but we also run an older system based on rsync which rsyncs the system to directory on a server (sans some data directories) that uses snapshots to keep space usage minimal for the purpose.
In many cases, if we want to restore we can literally just rsync data back to the host, whether one or a few files or most of the system.
I can restore many types of failures within seconds or single digit minutes at most, and the time required is mostly unattended time. Time to restore is often an important and overlooked metric, until you've been bitten by it and realized that an hour or more of work from a person to restore something doesn't scale well in some scenarios, and those are often the most important ones.
__MatrixMan__25 minutes ago
It was a straw man though. When NixOS loads you get a list of all previous states to chose from. Booting to any one of them is just as fast as booting to the most recent one.
Restoring some backup via copying bits around is much slower because you have to wait for those bits to copy, whereas booting to previous configs is just rejiggering references to bits which are already in place and need no manipulation. Immutability buys you quite a lot here.
b3lvedere6 hours ago
If bare metal recovery takes shorter time than reinstalling, then you should make bare metal backups. When bare metal updates, so should your backups.
If you're using virtual machines, make sure to backup the hypervisor config and setup as well. You never know which part of the infrastructure starts to fail first.
zdc14 hours ago
I feel that this made more sense in 1997. Especially in the context of Windows Server and whatever people ran on it.
ocdtrekkie4 hours ago
If you think this is historical, you have a lot to learn about production servers in the wild! =)
Just as a not-insignificant portion of the world still relies on a handful of ancient AS/400 systems, a pretty big portion of society depends on the good running of hand-configured Windows Server.
avinoth8 hours ago
Is it possible to do that through Veracity? I don't want to use a non-Veracity based solution when Veracity already supports it.
PunchyHamster3 hours ago
Does Nix keeps old version indefinitely ?
Like, you can do the same with any distro and say Puppet or Ansible but only to within that distro packages, any 3rd party stuff (and people use more and more stuff that's 3rd party to the distro) might just have dead link for the download.
Also, plain restore from backup is still faster
l0b03 hours ago
It does, actually! Because only the package definitions are needed, and you can get those from the tarball of the relevant nixpkgs repo commit. And since building+installing is the same Nix command as downloading+installing, whether the binary caches still have the old package (or are even still up) is only the difference between a fast download and a slower build. This is different from most package managers, where trying to install anything old means spinning up a complex build environment and learning a bunch of new tools.
Of course, if even the original sources are no longer available, you'd have to change the broken URLs. And if the source has somehow been scrubbed from the Internet you're SOL
cyberax8 hours ago
I typically use restores from backups for my personal computer as opportunities to clean things up.
intrasight7 hours ago
Reverting to a snapshot is a better approach than using backups. My host machine is clean, as all my work is done in VMs.
drybjed9 hours ago
Tell that to MinIO users, lol.
ibotty12 hours ago
> The novice became suspicious and said: "Master, is all this 'Tao of Backup' stuff just so you can sell more copies of Veracity?"
> The master said: "Now you are truly enlightened."
mpolichettean hour ago
Lol, I got suspicious of it being an Ad as soon as that showed up, at least it has the guts to acknowledge it
bambax7 hours ago
> The master said, "Do not despair, for yesterday I took one of your backup tapes and posted it to my brother in China. He will return it."
The master should not have done this, even by sea mail, for the very first law of backup is: you will only learn to make proper backups after you suffer a catastrophic loss of data.
Protecting the student from this is depriving him of the only true knowledge, the one that is not merely stored in the head, but burned into the skin.
tovve6 hours ago
He loaded the week-old backup, but it was the same. Eventually, he realized that the virus had struck four months before. He returned to the master and said: "Master, you have the only uncorrupted copy!"
But the master had already overwritten it with a copy of DOOM.siban hour ago
Great site - and lessons are still valid.
How you can tell it's from 1997:
The master fell silent, but on his way out he pocketed a 20 Gigabyte corporate backup tape that was lying around.
bigbuppo33 minutes ago
That's about the right size for all the data that actually matters at a big corporation. Everything else is just marketing slop that people think is important.
happyrock16 hours ago
I miss the World Wide Web, man...
kombookcha10 hours ago
Hard same.
Perusing small blogs over feeds any day of the week.
Joel_Mckay16 hours ago
Social media cannibalized most of the interesting blogs, and 92% of people no longer have the patience to scroll more than 1/2 a page of text. =3
ahazred8ta2 days ago
For reference: a comprehensive backup + security plan for individuals https://nau.github.io/triplesec/
alpaca1289 hours ago
> Store your Really Important Info in a Google Drive/iCloud synced VeraCrypt volume
There is no way I would entrust Google or Apple with keeping important data. Google being infamous for account issues with absolutely no support and Apple already borked my account in a way that makes my iPad unusable the moment I turn on backup sync.
ciupicri4 hours ago
> Google banned you
> Access a local copy of your Really Important Info storage data on one of your devices. You are fine.
PunchyHamster3 hours ago
but why make it a primary storage in the first place. Sync to cloud as a backup, not other way around
My setup is Syncthing + restic for backups history. I have VM "in the cloud" that act as extra node/shit hits the fan plan too
free652an hour ago
If you use multiple computers thats why.
aidenn013 hours ago
I have neither a macbook nor an iphone
sdcfgy12 hours ago
That is horribly written.
deknos10 hours ago
please extend for
* windows * android
* specific applications like
* signal * photos
and son on :D
nzoschke7 hours ago
I just launched a music backup tool and service.
Storage is Hetzner Storage Box which so far feels great. Cheap and supports SSH SFTP WebDAV, so you can use rsync or restic and browse artifacts over www.
It feels a little slow hosting in Germany but using from US. But I haven’t found a provider with the same cost / features.
Any alternatives folks use for backups?
gormandizer2 hours ago
I've been using rsync.net for years.
mrngld5 hours ago
NetDynamics shares some promo codes every so often, they have a data center in Utah as well as the EU. I wouldn't call it super low latency -- but backup generally doesn't need to be. I've used both at various times for a personal off site backup target.
But for commercial use, IDK, you'd want to dig into the details of their system. Not exactly S3 levels of resilience, but perhaps enough for some people, I leave it to others to judge.
infogulchan hour ago
Borg + Backblaze B2
throwaway8152316 hours ago
Haven't seen that in ages and thought it had moved. 20GB tape containing all the corporate goodies. That makes me smile.
sdcfgy12 hours ago
That should still be the case today.
Other than photos, music and videos, everything I have ever done in the last 40 years is 1.57Gb.
Media is where it got expensive.
mrngld5 hours ago
I worked for a small manufacturing company some years back, and depending on what you're doing it's easy to rack up some huge file storage usage and big databases without being in the business of video, photography or music. The database that only ran our manufacturing, not inclusive of HR, accounting, etc., was about 1TB. The design files that went to the plant (most of which were just text, you could open them with Notepad) were another 3 or 4 TB worth. Maybe another 1TB or so for various collateral bits of data related to jobs, mostly PDFs.
The company has, I'm sure, probably tripled all that by now. In their case it compressed really well, but still.
All that to say, YMMV, significantly.
OroPla8 hours ago
Corporate backups include entire VMs, not just files. So you are looking at something that is closer to 40TB than to 40GB.
Joel_Mckay15 hours ago
The $/TiB storage cost currently creates weird choices in backup media... even making some older media formats economical again. Just finished a consumer storage option survey yesterday.
Even if you account for consumer drive+spare cost, a 8TB HDD is still the best JBOD option. For under several dozen 25GB projects, the BD-R disc drive is currently the cheapest media backup option (about 35% cheaper than HDD above 12TiB). Note 50G and 100G BD EOL media are actually equal to or a worse deal than HDD.
Also, HPE LTO9 18GB Tapes are currently around 5 to 15 times cheaper than HDD and SSD in terms of data storage cost, but the fixed cost of tape auto-loaders and drives don't always make sense until you have a significant amount of backup data. Tapes may also create a single point of failure in use... so incremental backups are a non-zero risk, and triple redundant hardware is required (old hardware gets hard to find.)
The classic joke is still true: "Fast, cheap, or good.. choose any two..."
Best of luck =3
Gigachad15 hours ago
I looked in to the bluray thing and concluded it just doesn't make sense at any level. You have to buy a bluray writer which will become increasingly rare, and then you are limited to 25GB disks where you have to factor in a chunk of that will go unused as each project won't fit on exactly 25gb.
For the effort you are expending, just getting a hard drive makes way more sense even if the $/gb is technically a little worse. The utility of hard drives is much better.
computator12 hours ago
Blu-ray, or any non-rewritable optical media, guarantees that it hasn't been tampered with. If I were attacked by malware, I like the confidence that the Blu-ray backup is absolutely guaranteed to be the same as on the date it was written. A hard disk used for backup might have been reattached to the network at some point after the initial backup and gotten infected/corrupted/altered.
Terr_12 hours ago
> Blu-ray, or any non-rewritable optical media, guarantees that it hasn't been tampered with.
In terms of external tampering, I think that need is better-served by encrypting everything, which you probably want to do anyway. Or at least using some sort of checksum signed by a key.
However if the focus is "what if the backup process is compromised", then yes, having some date which is beyond its writing-reach may be useful. Another aspect of this might be a remote-backup system where one set of credential is enough for daily backups and restore, while another is needed in order to access a set of older duplicates that are remotely maintained as ransomware-protection.
taneliv10 hours ago
That depends on your threat model. If the attacker can swap the Blu-ray disc to a similar looking one, but with content they control, that absolute guarantee becomes moot.
Joel_Mckay14 hours ago
>I looked in to the bluray thing and concluded it just doesn't make sense at any level.
I mostly agree, but the 25GB M-Disc EOL media format is fairly interesting for archival purposes. The gamble actually made sense in this rare instance as each active project folder still fit on one disc, and the $120USD omnidrive firmware drives should keep the retro-equipment running for a few more years. These are relatively inexpensive even with a spare unit in the box.
>just getting a hard drive makes way more sense
In many cases this can be true, but the 3 years of HDD flight time compared to the 7+ year SSD wear life is also fairly close. It is weird, but the cost of higher capacity 18TB/24TB HDD also no longer make sense for JBOD either... unless you are hitting rack space constraints. =3
nxobject15 hours ago
I've been down "LTO at home?" rabbit-hole... I nearly ended up buying a SAS HBA, until I realized that S3 Glacier is tape-as-a-service.
bigbuppo19 minutes ago
I have LTO at home. It's great. There's something about tape, especially LTO, that just lets me sleep easy at night
sdcfgy12 hours ago
S3 is too expensive to do a restore from. And you have to restore to verify.
mrweasel10 hours ago
Depending on the amount of data you have, might it not be less expensive than build the tape drive?
An LTO drive is easily $10.000. You can restore a lot of S3 data for that amount of money. Sadly getting cheaper tape options is not really possible anymore.
Joel_Mckay9 hours ago
>Depending on the amount of data you have, might it not be less expensive than build the tape drive?
Rule #25: Try to avoid making what one may purchase, as the total cost is often many times higher than first assumed.
It is tempting for many, but often doesn't end well for businesses. =3
sdcfgy10 hours ago
I paid < $400 for my LTO5
mrweasel9 hours ago
I assume used. Sadly I'm not really in a market where that type of equipment is widely available second hand.
sdcfgy9 hours ago
Yeah used with 1 year warranty.
Ah that sucks :(
nxobject11 hours ago
It isn't too expensive for my use case – per month, I retrieve about 500GB a month from Glacier Instant Retrieval to verify, which costs ~$15. Combined with other costs, my monthly bill is ~$50.
I used to use Backblaze B2, which had cheaper egress at the cost of slightly more expensive storage (I think ~$5/TB/mo, with free egress up to 3x all current storage?) So I paid $20. But at some point AWS opened a datacenter near me, and I couldn't ignore how much faster data transfers got.
sdcfgy10 hours ago
It's ok when it's 0.5TB but we're at about 900TB.
The point is the cost doesn't scale well.
smw9 hours ago
use cloudflare's r2, no egress fees
yread11 hours ago
Just bought an LTO drive yesterday (after failing to cool its predecessor properly - dont be like me). They got more expensive more or less in line with HDDs :(
Joel_Mckay9 hours ago
Used Tape drives often had the write heads service hours go well past its recommended limits. Mission critical IT systems don't get "upgraded" off schedule very often. ymmv
Anecdotally, I have seen Tape sets fail in production settings, as a remote office location admin was doing incremental backups... and the sick tape drive kept silently damaging each daily roll-back attempt. They may fail ungracefully in an archival context.
I do not deny a janky BD-R drive option is situation specific, but for small projects I am fine with a 25GB disc $25.80/TiB solution with the occasional big file $62.42/TiB hit for 100G/128G EOL discs.
HDD are less hassle, still hit below $34.63/TiB, and last a few years. Not a bad fall back option if you still have old inventory. =3
Joel_Mckay14 hours ago
AWS is an option up to 30TiB, but also feeds into the over-provisioned data-center market pressures. The recent "rclone --gui" solution does bestow rsync/sshfs like features for Windows users now, and remote mounts are easier/cleaner to bring up. =3
written-beyond12 hours ago
After reading the title, but before visiting the link, thought this was a backup of all of Terrance Taos work.
divbzero14 hours ago
Not to be confused with the Zen of Backup…
A novice asked the master: “What must I do to learn the Zen of Backup?” The master whacked the novice in the head, grabbed the keyboard, and ran sudo rm -rf /. The novice smiled and left feeling enlightened.
ChrisMarshallNY3 hours ago
I assume that this was a [very good] ad for Veracity.
kaon_27 hours ago
This was a true joy to read and as pleasant as ads can come.
ocharles6 hours ago
I felt old seeing this posted again, but I think I feel even older due to the lack of comments saying "I remember this"!
alterom6 hours ago
I never forgot seeing this back from Slashdot days.
It's how I learned to back up data.
Well. That, and data loss.
intrasight7 hours ago
After six years on my old build, last week I built a new computer. One of the things I invested in was treating the backup regime as the most important aspect of the new build. There's a piece of mind one gets from achieving the "seven heads"
huhtenberg9 hours ago
And the cautious reader asked:
Surely it's not a plug for some product ?
/next /next /next ... Bah, of course, it is !
And they closed the tab and flagged the submission even though the actual advice was reasonable and the product no longer existed.hazbot8 hours ago
To be fair it's a plug from 1997 and the domain has since changed hands
vntokop4 hours ago
A weird reaction. You're missing some very good advice, advice that is completely oblivious to the backup product... a now-defunct product which is only advertised by a now-defunct company, just the once (that's refreshing), very clearly and honestly (that's refreshing), at the very end of the slideshow.
javier_e065 hours ago
I would expect the Tao of backup to loose all data every so often. What is success without failure?
bigbuppo16 minutes ago
Your fast and lose with the english language.
BLKNSLVR5 hours ago
Information wants to be loose!
vixen995 hours ago
lose
OroPla8 hours ago
Wow,.. this is so old that they still use the word "Tao" instead of "Dao". Still good advice, too.
jackmalpo3 hours ago
the backup that can be named is not the eternal backup
alexpotato3 hours ago
Obligatory link to the story about how Toy Story 2 got deleted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dhp_20j0Ys
PS If you work in DevOps, SRE or Storage, this video may give you a panic attack
jmclnx16 hours ago
Nice Epilogue
aeon_ai14 hours ago
> But the master had already overwritten it with a copy of DOOM.
A master after my own heart.
xnx15 hours ago
I like that the site is simple text (if not plain writing), but even in 1997 this multi-page layout would've a pain to read vs. a single page.
[deleted]10 hours agocollapsed
cavoirom15 hours ago
I read all the steps, but not yet enlightened.
fuzztester3 hours ago
You have to write them first.
Now trying to think of a Unix joke involving write, read and tee that also makes sense for the backup topic ...
apples_oranges10 hours ago
Loss of hard disk is a great way to declutter your system just saying
[deleted]12 hours agocollapsed
swozey4 hours ago
I accidentally let qwen wipe my 60tb nas the other day, and the tao of that is "well at least i dont have to stress about what im doing with my 30 years of rando .docs, facebook pics, games, ebooks and star trek episodes anymore"
c'est la vie, it was only 2tb filled and mostly games
Like giving a 6yo unix jr eng a crayon and root login. "you made them ALL apfs at the same time??" sorry dad. i can't believe people use this in prod, but i know i'm also not flagging perms my pi is ready to roll! gotta watch qwen3.6, they will be getting demoted.
bigbuppo9 minutes ago
Man, that sucks. I always feel incredible loss when just one single file is gone forever. Can't imagine what it's like to lose everything.
TacticalCoder6 hours ago
I spent lots of time thinking about backups. I've got files dating back to 1991 and even some from the 80s (but I don't care about those so didn't bother backing them up: when the last 5"1/4 shall stop reading, those will be gone and it's fine).
I've even got stuff like copies of early websites made by friends, websites long gone and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one to still have backups of those.
To me verifying the backup should be part of the backup procedure itself and so I did just that: my backup procedure does verify that the backups can be decrypted/unarchived and it then verifies the files inside the backup.
Now the thing is: you don't need to verify 100% of your backups all the time (as in I don't decrypt and verify the checksums of 100% of my backups all the time). You can do random sampling: over n backups, you can be reasonably sure at least x% of the files are correct.
So random sampling is part of my backup procedure.
As those are encrypted backups, the verification also ensures that the backups can be decrypted (would be too bad otherwise, wouldn't it?).
I also believe the backuping procedure should not be able to go wild and destroy data. So my backup procedure is done by a podman container that access the volume with all my data (the one that needs to be backed up) read-only.
> To believe in one's backups is one thing. To have to use them is another."
Yes, which is why a proper backup procedure verifies the backup it just created. The greenlight is only given to the backup that's just been made once it's been verified by my verification script.
Some stuff can be verified automatically: for example say you backup a Git repo: a strict, full, git fsck on the backup (that is: on the Git repo once pulled out of the backup, before greenlighting it) works fine.
For other things I've got my own verifications.
> These hundreds of corrupted files have been flowing through my backup system. Now I do not know which files are clean and which are not.
Which is why many of my files, which I know aren't supposed to ever change anymore, have a partial checksum added as part of the filename.
I don't have:
DSC0983747.JPG
but: DSC0983747-b3-7e228491a0.JPG
where 7e228491a0 are the first 40 bits of the Blake3 checksum of the file.Then it become very complicated for "something" (bit rot or malicious) to silently corrupt my stuff for the backuping procedure (which only has read-only access to data, remember) goes crazy bonkers and warns me as soon as two identically named files (one on the last backup and the current version) have an identical name but different content and one doesn't match the checksum (this is cause for a "stop the world" and immediate enquiry: and, yup, it already allowed me to catch a corrupted file).
I've moreover got a sheet of paper, laminated, that explains how to access the backups and that explanation is saved in many places (safe at the bank, safe at my brother's house in another country, etc.): should say my place burn with me inside, but my wife be safe, she'd be able to access the backups too.
As for my main data, it's RAID on ZFS on a machine with ECC and that's where the backups are made (and automated) from.
Proper backup procedure is not hard: it just takes some time to set up properly, once. Then it's done for a lifetime.
bigbuppo5 minutes ago
Yeah... I'm going to have to incorporate the checksum-in-the-name idea into my photography workflow.
palaceme10 hours ago
[flagged]
bhavyshekhaliya14 hours ago
[flagged]
popalchemist13 hours ago
HTTPS cert is invalid
stanac11 hours ago
there is no cert, it's http://
mxuribe4 hours ago
You have learned another lesson: that a TLS/SSL cert is not necessary to achieve enlightenment! /s