dvh13 hours ago
Apparently their beets looked the same as ours:
> The kind of beets used in such an ancient recipe should not be different from the beets we use today, even in name. We read in Dictionary of Assyrian Botany (by Campbell Thompson, 1948) that in the ancient Mesopotamian region it was called ‘shumundar,’ it was as red as blood, and has a spinning-top shape (pp. 49, 51).
gyanchawdhary4 minutes ago
Intresting. In Hindi/urdu it’s called “chukandar”
thaumasiotes9 hours ago
If it's any consolation, their lambs were nothing like ours.
This period is early enough that sheep weren't yet sheared.
fsloth2 hours ago
Oh! So were sheep just for meat back then?
eru44 minutes ago
Maybe also for leather?
And in nature sheep drop their coats without shearing.
wolfi133 minutes ago
do they? there are reports of lost sheep which when found had a very thick fur or whatever the shepherds call it
eru31 minutes ago
Sorry, when I said in nature, I meant undomesticated sheep.
Domesticated sheep that get lost for a while don't magically learn how to shed their coat, yes.
alephnerd13 hours ago
The recipe is also similar to Hamedh [0], a delicacy in Iraqi and Baghdadi Jewish households. The only major difference is the addition of tomatoes thanks to the Columbian Exchange, and rice - which would have not been cultivated or traded in West Asia yet.
On that note, in Arabic, Farsi, and Hindustani the word for Tomato is essentially shared (tumatar/tamatimu) with the English word "tomato".
But anyhow, a lot of home cooking and traditional meals actually have a pretty long history.
[0] - https://www.splendidtable.org/story/2000/12/12/hamad-iraqi-b...
culian hour ago
> rice - which would have not been cultivated or traded in West Asia yet
Surprisingly it was still imported in surprising quantities nearly 1000 years before it started to be cultivated. Not significant enough quantities for it to be a common staple, but still an interesting tidbit
amir_karbasi9 hours ago
Actually, in Persian, tomato is literally translated as “western plum”. This is common in our language as we usually say “western” or “foreign” as a prefix to many things that were introduced to Iran (strawberries, sit-style toilets, etc)
eru42 minutes ago
Austrians call tomatoes Paradeiser, from an older word for Paradise.
xattt7 hours ago
As an aside, tomatoes are golden apples (pomodoro), and oranges are Chinese apples (Apfelsin) in some languages.
A lot of cultures appear to name botanicals using apples or, in GP’s context, stone fruit as “reference” points.
vladguran hour ago
Wow, апельсин - apelsin(Russian) makes total sense now
snthpy2 hours ago
Thank you for this. Knowing both those words, i could never work out the original/history of the terms.
fsckboy2 hours ago
>A lot of cultures appear to name botanicals using apples
don't know if it makes the point or upends it, but the fruit in the Garden of Eden wasn't specifically an apple.
thrdbndndn6 hours ago
Chinese does the same thing, using prefixes like 西 (western), 番 (foreign), and 洋 (foreign) for introduced items.
For tomatoes, interestingly, it has two common names that follow this pattern: 西紅柿, literally translated as "Western Red Persimmon", and 番茄, literally translated as "Foreign Eggplant".
Other produce examples include 番薯 (Foreign Yam) for sweet potato, 西瓜 (Western Melon) for watermelon, 洋蔥 (Foreign Onion) for bulb onion etc.
dotancohen6 hours ago
The recorded English-language etymology for "ketchup" suggests that the word comes from one of the Chinese dialect's word for tomato. Do you have any idea which Chinese word sounds like ketchup?
thelibrarianan hour ago
My personal theory based on nothing more than the vibe of the thing is that it comes from the Malay/Indonesian word ‘kecap’ (which is pronounced almost identically to “ketchup”), the word for sweet soy sauce. This is soy sauce that is thickened and sweetened with palm sugar, and I could see European cooks attempting to replicate it based on the vague descriptions given by sailors, and ending up with ketchup.
suddenlybananas2 minutes ago
It came from the Malay word, but the Malay word comes from Hokkien.
taneliv2 hours ago
Not exactly a Chinese dialect, but Vietnamese calls tomatoes "cà chua": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C3%A0_chua .
fsckboy2 hours ago
possibly Hokkien 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish sauce”) via Malay kecap ~ kicap “any dark clear sauce from soy, fish etc”
riffraff9 hours ago
Interesting, in various European languages those tend to be "Turkish": turkey hens (the bird called turkey now), Turkish corn (maize), Turkish beans (long beans).
Again, trade routes.
selcuka3 hours ago
> Turkish corn (maize)
And in Turkish maize is called "Mısır", which comes from the country name Egypt (which is also Mısır in Turkish).
When Arabs conquered Egypt, they called it "Mishr" (مصر) which literally translates to "country" or "borderland". Maize was originally imported from the Americas, but because the trade route was through Egypt, Turkish people initially called it Egypt Wheat or Egypt Millet. In time, it is started to be called only Mısır/Egypt.
idontwantthis8 hours ago
In Panama they say Chino for foreign versions and in Cambodia they say barang which literally means Frankish (via farang from Thailand).
oldandboring8 hours ago
> maize
Which, in turn, originated in Mexico and didn't make its way to Europe until the 1500s.
alephnerd9 hours ago
Appreciate the clarification!
amir_karbasi8 hours ago
My pleasure! I also find languages very interesting and have had the opportunity to grow up in a bilingual home and learn French and German.
One more fun fact is that potato is a direct translation of the French “Pomme de terre” (“sib zamani” or “ground apple”).
Back to the actual topic, this is a recipe that’s definitely worth trying. Persian shallots are actually more garlicky than oniony. A great addition to lamb dishes and yogurt.
dotancohen6 hours ago
Thank you! In Hebrew we literally call the potato תפוח אדמה which is "ground apple". Now I know where the idea comes from.
abtinf3 hours ago
It is not a “clarification”. You are wrong and are spreading misinformation. In Farsi, the word for tomato is gojeh farangi.
dotancohen6 hours ago
> On that note, in Arabic, Farsi, and Hindustani the word for Tomato is essentially shared (tumatar/tamatimu) with the English word "tomato".
In the Levant we use the word بندورا "bindora" in Arabic for tomato.alephnerd5 hours ago
Huh. Like Pomodoro. That makes sense.
IgorPartola4 hours ago
In Russian we use tomat and pomidor interchangeably.
jamal-kumar3 hours ago
Meanwhile English speakers joke about disagreements over the pronunciation of tomato
simonh19 minutes ago
My favourite take on this. https://youtu.be/kcHKm0cm-jI?is=fqjBSNiJ2jYEXuq1
harel7 hours ago
Coincidentally this book which has been a labour of love of his creator is going into print this week: https://www.tableofgods.com
It's quite expensive though, but it does look amazing.
eikenberry12 hours ago
Close to a recipe on Tasting History... https://www.tastinghistory.com/recipes/babylonianlambstew Our current favorite dinner watching along with Alton Brown.
3RTB2979 minutes ago
Came here to mention Max Miller as well. Amazing work putting together historical context and recipes. Always fun, fascinating, and the recipes are generally very approachable.
I've also made the Babylonian stew from this recipe, and it's rich and hearty. It's easy to see how this would knock the...sandals off of ancient people.
Other ancient recipes...let's just say that humans have very much not held the same tastes over the eons. Some recipes were incongruent or sweet and savory in a strange way, or simply a flex about how many spices you had access to and cold throw in a dish, not about what it really tasted like. YMMV.
Rendello11 hours ago
I've made this Roman recipe probably a dozen times and everyone who's tried it really likes it [1].
The strange ingredients are garum [2] and asafoetida [3]. The former is just a fish sauce, so that's not hard to substitute, but you have to find asafoetida on the Internet or at an Indian food store.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LynenQ5h2Y
jamal-kumar3 hours ago
I can usually find hing (asafoetida) in grocery stores in certain more populous parts of Canada in the spice section, it's quite a good garlic substitute for those who can't do garlic
maxglute6 hours ago
https://blog.crystalking.com/ancient-roman-food-parthian-chi...
the parthian chicken was stupid easy and tasty
ilc_genesis_017 hours ago
Yep, this is a great shoutout and I'm also a big TH fan. If you haven't yet, check it out!
greatquux8 hours ago
Yes! Came here to recommend Max. His cookbook is also educational and interesting and some of the recipes are even good! :-)
johnohara29 minutes ago
The Babylonian Collection was left to Yale by J.P. Morgan in 1913. His estate at the time was estimated to be worth about $68.3M ($1.59B in 2024 dollars).
When I read that on his wikipedia page I thought "is that all?" I know I'm probably missing a bunch of other considerations, but geez, the 500th spot on the 2024 Forbes World's Billionaires list was shared by multiple individuals worth approximately $5.8B.
comrade123412 hours ago
How's the presentation? Just imagining it, it would seem that the meet would have a weird color.
debo_11 hours ago
It looks great. When I first saw it, I thought "this color can't be beet"
LastTrain4 hours ago
OMG perfect :-)
_continuation6 hours ago
good one
cantalopes8 hours ago
Gonna be quite challenging to get "1/2 cup of rendered sheep fat"
strken7 hours ago
In Australia where lamb is more common than in the US, it'd be pretty easy to keep the fat after roasting a lamb shoulder, or to freeze the fatty offcuts from forequarter chops and render them after I had enough.
jp0d7 hours ago
Lamb is quite popular down here in Australia. I usually keep some rendered fat from my roasts etc. Sometimes I cook other meats with it and it adds heaps of flavour. I do that with pork fat as well.
mermadicsolutio7 hours ago
I was able to get some tail fat from a halal butcher. But never seen lamb fat anywhere else
ardit332 hours ago
Easy... Just go to a Trader's Joe, and get a lamb leg and roast it....
s0rce7 hours ago
if you have a good butcher they might be able to get you some that you can render, but its a hassle. I've done this for beef fat to make some british pie things.
dyauspitr6 hours ago
Lamb is usually the red meat of choice, other than pork, almost everywhere besides the US.
hulitu3 hours ago
You should visit Europe.
badc0ffeean hour ago
Or Japan, or Canada, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Chile, or...
protocolture4 hours ago
I cant see why.
peri-cl6 hours ago
The source texts are available here, if anyone wants to read the literal translations:
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/ancient-mesopota...
bornfreddy11 hours ago
I think the taste of their beer would have been much different from what we drink today?
0xbadcafebee10 hours ago
Nutty, aromatic, yeasty, slightly sour. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK4DMt8ARyU
applicative10 hours ago
They certainly didn't use hops!
yubblegumop10 hours ago
I'm reading Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones' Babylon - The Biography of a Metropolis which just recently came out, and that's how I ended up hearing about Yale's culinary adventures.
The book, btw, is kind of breezy in style and 'he of many LLs in his name' (Lālu-mullālu in Akkadian as suggested by my friendly AI) uses a lot of contemporary pop (nerdy) references to carry the narrative, yet very engaging and am learning a lot about this fabled city (and civilization).
It sets certain records straight ...
PeterHolzwarth7 hours ago
What's enlightening is how astonishingly little salt is used, by our standards.
peri-cl6 hours ago
The ingredient ratios are the Yale researchers' interpretation—they're not from the source text,
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/ancient-mesopota...
> "Like most premodern cooking manuals, the Babylonian recipes rarely list the quantities of each ingredient, and so basic experimentation is needed to determine viable proportions for the assembly of a dough or the salting of a stew. The “experimental” approach likewise offers answers to questions that can only be addressed through trial and error. For example, many of the identifications of herbs proposed by modern scholars are based mainly on medical compendia, and some of the plants thus identified can produce an extremely bitter or perhaps pungent taste when used in food."
Here's the recipes as literally translated (I used tesseract to OCR):
> "Unwinding. Meat is not used. You prepare water. You add fat. (You add) kurrat, cilantro, salt as desired, leek, garlic. You pound up dried sourdough, you sift (it) and you scatter (it) over the pot before removing it."
> "Stew of lamb. Meat is used. You prepare water. You add fat. You add fine-grained salt, dried barley cakes, onion, Persian shallot, and milk. [You crush] (and add) leek and garlic."
> "Elamite broth. Meat is not used. You prepare water. You add fat. Dill, kurrat, cilantro, leek, and garlic bound with blood, a corresponding amount of sour milk, and (more) garlic. The (original) name (of this dish) is Zukanda."
> "Tuh’u. Leg meat is used. You prepare water. You add fat. You sear. You fold in salt, beer, onion, arugula, cilantro, Persian shallot, cumin, and red’ beet, and [you crush] leek and garlic. You sprinkle coriander on top. [You add] kurrat and fresh cilantro."
lorenzohess2 hours ago
Bears,Beets
culian hour ago
Babylon Galactica
lettergram6 hours ago
If you like this, you may like the "Tasting History" YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/@TastingHistory
He basically covers a different historic dish every week ranging from the oldest recorded dishes to cafeteria food from 1990; or what they served on the Titanic, etc.
It's a great channel, and covers history well.
mermadicsolutio7 hours ago
Honestly the recipe sounds like adding beets to a regular lamb stew recipe. If I havent watch this video and saw the dish, I would think some fancy restaurant is trying to be "innovative"
analog837412 hours ago
I dislike lamb but the rest sounds great. Maybe I could sub beef.
dyauspitr6 hours ago
I mean, this had to be a dish for royalty or something right? How on earth that they have all of those fresh and dried ingredients on hand 4000 years ago.
tensor4 hours ago
No, it's common. People today have no idea how truly poor they eat. Modern fast food is essentially fake food paste.
ardit332 hours ago
2/3rds of those herbs grow in the garden of my home as just weed (this in Albania), including mint, cilantro, origano and more.
While some have to be cultivated, a lot these herbs just grow as weeds in the Mediterranean area.
sophacles4 hours ago
Most of them seem like a pretty common kitchen garden to me.
And all of the plants are native to that area, or close enough that people who had been farming for a few thousand years at that point would have brought them from neighboring lands to use.
thataccount4 days ago
[flagged]
tom_13 hours ago
Curious indeed that the Yale Babylonian Collection should, out of all the possible options, choose the cooking of Ancient Babylon. I wonder what we should read into this. I have some theories, but it might be dangerous for me even to mention that I have them.
yubblegumop4 days ago
Cradle of civilization is not an odd culture. Babylon, meaning Gate of God, is one of the more profoundly influential urban civilizational clusters in human history.
thataccount4 days ago
[flagged]
ahazred8ta3 days ago
To an archeologist, 'civilization' refers to builders of walled cities inhabited by non-farmers with complex social sructure, division of labor, and usually some form of taxation. Highly moral hunter gatherers living in mud huts are not a 'civilization' in this context. Now you know.
thataccount3 days ago
[flagged]
krapp3 days ago
The vast majority of Africans aren't hunter-gatherers living in mud huts. They have actual cities with highways and skyscrapers and everything.
thataccount3 days ago
I'm not arguing for what is a majority. I'm talking about the large portions of Africa that still live in a hunter-gatherer situations in mud huts.
ahazred8ta3 days ago
Villages in New Guinea, the Amazon, etc, the word you're looking for is 'cultures'.
Cultures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
Civilizations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Great_Zimbabwe & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs
The reason we're talking about the recipe is because it's one of the oldest recorded recipes, which is because they had writing.
thataccount3 days ago
>'cultures'.
That's interesting, because I don't really think of a "culture" as smaller than a "civilization". I think of a culture being a necessary thread that runs through a civilization and without which there are no civilizations.
TFNA10 hours ago
Traveling overland across Africa will swiftly disabuse you of the notion that hunter/gatherer lifestyles make up any "large portion" of the continent's population. It would hardly even be feasible in the face of massive deforestation and population boom.
krapp3 days ago
Africa comprises an entire continent. There are not large portions of it (or "large swaths") where people still live as hunter-gatherers living in mud huts, for any reasonable definition of "large portion."
jfjdkdkdkd13 hours ago
its sad that your ideology allows you to tell lies without an oz of shame.
thataccount3 days ago
> for any reasonable definition of "large portion."
I'm sure those relatively voiceless cultures will appreciate your minimization of their contribution to the peoples of Africa.
krapp3 days ago
You're the one who was claiming most Africans were hut-dwelling hunter-gatherers earlier. I'm not the one minimizing anything or anyone, just stop it.
thataccount3 days ago
Uh, what? I'm not sure where you are pulling that accusation from. I said very succinctly that I was not talking about what was the majority in Africa. I think you are confused.
BugsJustFindMe13 hours ago
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