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When GPT-5.6-sol's reasoning traces were leaked, they also used "caveman speak". Definitely a token efficiency optimization

Optimization. Why use many word when few word do trick?

qwen3.8-flash-next also 'thinks' like this in its thinking stage before output, watching it 'think' in opencode, but it produces syntax correct and grammatically correct code comments, changelogs and readme type files.

Saving tokens

Likely something that was first made especially obvious by Chinese models and then became something worth optimizing for in English too.

Chinese can be extremely information-dense in token terms, though it depends on the tokenizer. Roughly speaking, you can pack more "meaning" into a short sequence than English often allows for. That's why "caveman" reasoning is a pretty good fit.

There's a difference between bolting caveman speak onto an existing model and training a model to reason that way, though. If you just force an existing model to be concise in outputs, you're artificially reducing its available reasoning steps and can possibly prevent useful exploration or verification. If it's trained specifically to use compressed reasoning, it can learn to represent the same intermediate ideas in fewer generated tokens, cutting the number of sequential inference steps without necessarily sacrificing the useful reasoning itself.

It's not so much inherently a Chinese-model trait, but Chinese models could definitely have helped demonstrate how effective very compressed reasoning traces can be.

There are few tests of this, but one example I thought was interesting was here: https://github.com/PastaPastaPasta/llm-chinese-english

I wouldn't say it was Chinese specifically that was emulated, but it got people thinking about tokenizers and representation efficiency, and how natural English is rather inefficient.

I still call them stochastic parrots, but believe what they are revealing is that we are all stochastic parrots to some extent. I simply don't see how biological computation (i.e. thinking) can be anything else. Similar to the reveal in west world, we are likely much simpler than we give ourselves credit for.

A "train of thought" can be seen as a trace of a depth first search where the preceding trace is used to guide termination and next expansion decisions. A similar concept, "taboo search", exists in classical constraint optimization where previous solutions are fit to a model that guides future expansion (but as the name "taboo" implies, away from uninteresting solutions).

We also have harnesses that perform breath first search.

If I tried to describe what it means to "think deeply", I would probably say a combination of both.

Ultimately I believe that we will surpass human capabilities but fail with alignment. Handing the world's resources over to stochastic systems that can evolve faster than we can reason about them simply leaves too many "interesting" outcomes that do not end well. I also expect the failure modes will be totally non-obvious.

LLM is "stochastic parrot next word prediction machine"; it's just that this "stochastic parrot next word prediction machine" have proven to be smarter than most people. I mean, this already happened with AlphaGo too.

Yeah, it has been clear for a long time that there is reasoning and mental modeling going on here.

The other option is that you do understand those words the same way, and the people making these (now nonsensical) anti-AI claims simply aren’t talking about the same programs/models we are. Their idea of SOTA is when chatgpt.com launched.

If you took a point sample pre-Opus, and didn’t write a good prompt, of course you would think all AI programming was worthless slop.

The stochastic parrot epithet is so 4 months ago

Simon’s karma exceeds yours by about 1,300x — so most of us disagree with you. Like me, I disagree with you. I like the pelican benchmarking, and I like it when Simon stays on top of models for both public good reasons and because it saves me time and effort.

Nah, keep it up. I just come to the reviews for the pelican!

Comments that the HN community find interesting are surfaced higher.

Just tap on the [-], and upvote what you find more interesting :)

If I had to choose between more or less pelicans, I’d prefer more pelicans.

For me, an average long session results in about 200-300M cached input, 4-800K input, 2-400K output. Mostly the lower bound. Output depends on how much the model thinks.

There are two problems here:

- cache hit pricing (both Muse Spark 1.2 Contributor and MiMo 2.5 are around the $0.002-3/M mark)

- cache persistence time

Muse Spark drops the cache in less than 5m. MiMo keeps it around for at least an hour based on my experience with whoever is serving it for OpenCode. This difference itself will inflate bills massively.

A 500K token input repeatedly read by MS 1.2 for full input price 12 times an hour = $0.60. You would be expecting $0.012. So a 50x difference. Same thing on MiMo 2.5 is $0.018 because of longer cache times.

That's because Deepseek invented the paradigm of prompt caching, they are the SOTA when it comes these techniques. Despite them open sourcing all their research, nobody beats them.

edit: I do wish openrouter would let you sort providers by Cache Hit % and Cache cost. These are the only things that matter to me at this point when choosing a provider.

Of course they are. Of course they do. Nobody should be surprised by this.

>dont do Capitalism like the rest of the AI field

Like lobbying the US president to harm their competitors?

This reply is particularly interesting to me because most of my experience with actually using LLMs to get work done is with coding agents. But I only have a fairly narrow set of experiences: two pretty large solo Flutter projects. I am currently really pleased with Gemini as a coding agent. It could improve, but I think improvements are going to come from marginal gains in the harness and training material so it can catch things like misconfigured permissions in platform specific areas.

It's also interesting because, while coding agents are important and are a notable success, they are never going to be a multi trillion dollar business. And are there any other domains where LLMs have such a large impact?

That sounds like an interesting challenge. Have you seriously considered solving it? Because in about 10 seconds I came up with a process that should work, provided enough compute power. Simply model the traditional film making process by starting with a script, character stories. Design your world, then design the storyboard, and all the scenes. Create a list of all the visual elements that need to be replicated between all the scenes. Then you have to built prompts and reference art of the objects, faces, people. Make sure to do multiple takes of each scene, and have the vLLM critique and analyze the performances and technicalities. Should work?

I think, also, like in the traditional film makers career, this process should be built iteratively, start with a fast food commercial, then do a music video, then you can probably do a short film. Continue to improve the process, and one day I’m sure the LLM film studio can make you any movie you want, provided you have enough tokens.

The results are boring. Not because the content is boring, but because you can so easily remix the results. Human curation is what creates value with these, not dumping and consuming. A personal perspective of a human being ups the respect, where the exact same sentences generated by an LLM carry no such value.

I think this is the best and most realistic reply so far: the ability to do this is close enough, and things like AI music are hints that there is a business model for this. Maybe I'm just jaded about CGI effects in movies currently, but I think the fact that people except that kind of thing as entertainment means you might get away with a fully AI movie that people will pay for.

There are two more points in favor of this kind of AI movie project: there's zero chance that anyone would greenlight a Hollywood budget for the Silmarillion, and it is beyond human capability to write that screenplay.

How would a computer generated video be live action?

Since live action results are acceptable, this is already possible with current day LLMs. Just instruct one to hire a writer, director, cast, and crew to make the movie.

Plus, the token costs involved should be pretty low! (Other costs may not be.)

2000's supercomputer is today's (highest end) smartphone performance tho

Intel didn't just surf some natural wave of demand for higher power personal computers. Intel found new needs for powerful PCs, especially in gaming, and they put a lot of marketing and industry relations dollars behind PC gaming.

In other words. PC users didn't figure out that they could buy super powerful PCs and play games on them, that was a carefully managed market transition.

What is going to do the same for LLMs?

¿Como?

If the models stay open, it seems like everybody but anthropic/openai wins. i literally can’t see a downside. We can post-train the models to know about tienanmen square.

You are correct.

Oh yes! I forgot about that. Yes, you can see this in benchmarks about hy3 preview and hy3 release still today because they measured them separately - it was significant.

Claude and OpenAi are not allowed in Venezuela, so I thank China too and I swear to god I'll never use them and will be rooting for chinese models forever

Im not particularly fan of the chinese, but no chinese model asked for my citizen card yet to complete a task. And apparently no chinese provider uses persona to manage this kyc information. OpenAI does, in EU space. Just saying.

Parent poster is technically right - open “source” implies the source used to make something is open. The model source is training data and code, not just weights.

But the reality is, the weights are a useful artifact that you can use to create derivative works. So, dismissing it as a photoshop binary is as technically wrong as calling it open source.

Countries that aren’t competitive need access to training datasets so that they may train their own similarly capable models and be sure of the inputs. Governments cannot blindly trust open weight models from China and the US.

So windows is open source because the binaries are a lossy compression of the original source?