reenorap3 hours ago
It's probably never going to happen because neither party cares about protecting Americans rights, but we need to have some sort of law that creates a Chinese firewall between these mass surveillance data and the government, or whoever else.
I don't know if you could ever collect this data and never have foreign entities or NSA moles infiltrate into it by sending their agents to work at that company and steal the data whenever they want. But I can see how this would be good at fighting crime but also a completely and absolute destruction of privacy.
We need politicians that actually care about Americans and their rights but no one who cares is dumb enough to want to go into politics, which is the sad thing.
wmf3 hours ago
Just don't collect the data. If it's too dangerous for the government to have then private companies shouldn't have it either. The entire purpose of license plate readers is to assist law enforcement; if we decide as a society that we don't want to do it then just ban it completely.
baby_soufflean hour ago
You can't realistically ban cameras and character recognition software.
pigeons5 minutes ago
You can ban certain ways of using them, and enforce it and serve punishment for violation.
wl28 minutes ago
It’d be hard to keep individuals from doing this. But individuals aren’t running networks of cameras. Companies are. Those companies probably couldn’t fly under the radar selling LPR data if the practice was banned.
MaKey12 minutes ago
You can make it illegal to use private cameras for surveillance of public spaces. In Europe this is already the case.
ihsw3 minutes ago
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pictureofabear23 minutes ago
You can ban what’s done with the software/hardware, just as we ban assault with a deadly weapon.
djkoolaide3 hours ago
What's a Chinese firewall?
reenorap2 hours ago
oops I meant Chinese Wall
singleshot_an hour ago
They’re called ethical walls now, for obvious reasons (although the room is still Chinese, for whatever distinction).
JumpCrisscross2 hours ago
> What's a Chinese firewall?
"The Great Firewall (GFW; simplified Chinese: 防火长城; traditional Chinese: 防火長城; pinyin: Fánghuǒ Chángchéng) is the combination of legislative actions and technologies enforced by the People's Republic of China to regulate the Internet domestically" [1].
(I don't think they mean a Chinese wall [2].)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_wall#Alternative_terms
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hdgvhicv3 hours ago
Only america can think there no harm in mass collection of data, and actively is against any attempts to limit it (gdpr for example) because it’s “anti growth”
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psadauskas2 hours ago
This will never change until we pass laws that make personal data a liability instead of an asset.
mothballed2 hours ago
How about a law that says your documents, like your car registration number on a plate, doesn't have to be displayed except in case of reasonable articulable suspicion a crime has been committed. We could call it, the 4th amendment.
kQq9oHeAz6wLLSan hour ago
Your plate is displayed because driving is a privilege, not a right (note that traveling is a right, but you can travel without driving).
So your plate is really the proof that you've paid a bit for the infrastructure to drive on.
It's like having a wrist band to an event. You're not required to attend the event, but if you do attend it, you're required to wear the wrist band.
mothballedan hour ago
>Your plate is displayed because driving is a privilege, not a right (note that traveling is a right, but you can travel without driving).
But the 4th amendment is a right, that applies even when engaging in a "privilege." See also the fact police can't just willy nilly check your driver license while engaging in a "privilege."
>So your plate is really the proof that you've paid a bit for the infrastructure to drive on.
False.
Plates are required even on my own privately owned publicly accessible road, and a large portion of my trips happen on publicly available but 100% privately owned roads with 0 taxes to maintain them (in fact, I maintain a lot of the roads in my community myself because they are all private). In fact some of those roads, I 100% own and maintain, and yet since I legally can't bar anyone from driving on it the law in my state (AZ) requires a displayed plate (even for me).
>It's like having a wrist band to an event. You're not required to attend the event, but if you do attend it, you're required to wear the wrist band.
It's like citing me for not having a wrist band on my own owned road easement, which is the law in my state. There is no property right you are attempting to assert under which that makes sense. I can go about 90% of the way to "town" on privately owned roads in which none of the owners care if I have a "wrist band" yet the state can still cite me for not having it.
asdff4 hours ago
In socal people might not even use license plates at all. Some people mask them with a towel or something like that. Some run paper dealership plates which I guess don't need to have any license number on them at all, just the dealer logo. Others just take them off and drive. I've seen plates that were sanded clean and with different numbers stuck on them that don't match then indented numbers.
And then of course all the texas plates. No, it isn't just visitors from texas. Texas has a cool loophole where there is no registration information on the plate, it is on a little sticker on the dashboard. As such, there are a dozen plus cars that have been regulars in my neighborhood for years with texas plates, with some several years old sticker on their dashboard.
It is kind of surprising that they don't get hit with a huge ticket for failing to register their car after 20 days. Some even park on the street quite brazenly. But maybe that shows how these systems are, today at least, very poorly connected between states. I've even seen a car being sold locally where the owner openly admits it was never registered or smogged, and they used it as their local neighborhood runabout just rolling the dice that they would not get pulled over. Just an aspect of the driving culture.
jkestner2 hours ago
Note that Flock says it can identify a car by physical characteristics from dents to bumper stickers.
pizzly33 minutes ago
You properly could identify cars uniquely by the sound they make. If not now then soon.
cucumber37328422 hours ago
Having worked with the result of prior generations (circa 2010) of algorithms for that sort of thing in the radar spectrum (I was not privy to the actual algorithms that underpinned it all) I suspect accuracy drops off exponentially once you get away from text based stuff and flagrant body differences (missing mirror, aftermarket spoiler, etc).
FireBeyond2 hours ago
Absolutely they can. Vehicle panel colors, wheel rims, roofrack, tow hitch, bumper stickers, damage all factor into their vehicle fingerprinting.
And once they've got a real license plate for the vehicle, all the historical information for that vehicle fingerprint's activities are now linked.
giobox3 hours ago
> Some run paper dealership plates which I guess don't need to have any license number on them at all, just the dealer logo
In California, isn't this just a normal person buying a new car? If bought from a dealership lot, a new car will run on temporary paper plates for several weeks until the permanent registration and new plate is processed. You see this all the time in CA, because CA buys a lot of new cars. There are even circumstances a used car will roll of the dealer lot with paper plates pending processing.
bagels3 hours ago
That isn't how it works anymore, as far as I know (it used to). The dealerships now can print paper license plates with numbers on them.
jerlam3 hours ago
Yup, I recently bought a car and you get temporary numbers that are associated with the dealer (who knows who you are and what car you have) until your actual plate with real numbers and registration comes from the DMV.
asdff3 hours ago
You can tell when it isn't a normal person buying a new car when it is your neighbor's car you see for multiple years with those "temporary" tags. I catch a lot of out of date registration too. Usually those cars are parked off street but sometimes not. I usually see about two dozen on my walks. Easy to tell at a glance when you recognize what color tag is now very stale.
everdrive3 hours ago
Sometimes, yes, but some groups of people just run with temporary tags for a very long time and roll the dice.
acdha21 minutes ago
There are groups on Facebook Marketplace selling fakes. They used to have those Texas dealer plates but I believe the Texas authorities finally stopped procrastinating on doing something about that.
It used to be easy to search for terms like “tires” and find what were clearly counterfeiting rings.
dawnerd2 hours ago
I drive in socal a lot and I rarely see a car without a visible plate.
dfxm123 hours ago
Car culture sucks, but on the other hand, I'm kinda glad we don't live in such a police state that we got people going out of their way looking over our shoulders at this level of detail.
Although, this does get enforced in some places, at least. I remember on Parking Wars, PPA ticketed or maybe impounded a car that had an out of state expired registration.
asdff3 hours ago
Well, it directly leads to registration fees and insurance rates being higher than they would normally with everyone paying in properly. There's also air quality concerns with people not going for smog checks. So people not playing that game are getting hurt by the people who do.
jerlam3 hours ago
Having laws that only some people follow, and others do not without penalty, bothers everyone's natural sense of fairness and eventually rots the whole concept of following laws.
dfxm123 hours ago
We have a lowering trust society for many reasons. I don't doubt it plays a role, but I'm sure this is low on the list of contributing factors. The required deployment of LEO to our communities to enforce this as suggested would lower trust further. There are many more impactful ways to raise trust, and most of them involve addressing the corruption of those in power.
cucumber37328422 hours ago
>natural sense of fairness
This sets off my spidey senses in the same way that "social contract", "law abiding citizen" and other turns of phrase like that do.
>Having laws that only some people follow
It's not like these people are all part of the system and protected from consequences. They're just saying fuggit consequences be damned. Be happy that some have the balls to tell the system to shove it. You can choose to be one of them any time you want.
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mothballed2 hours ago
There's a certain kind of person cops don't like to deal with unless it's going to get them a nice promotional-tier felony arrest. Not a lot of people looking to wrestle with a gang banger over a registration ticket. If you look like a functional member of society though they'll ruthlessly enforce whatever money they can get out of you.
amanaplanacanal4 hours ago
My local town runs their own license plate readers for red light and speed cameras. Not sure how the feds could get access to those.
asdff3 hours ago
These have funny loopholes usually. For our county they have a few connected to running the red light for a busway. But notoriously the information is collected by some company out of state with no actual policing power, who then begs you to pay the ticket with a letter every couple months. You can actually ignore this if you avoid any sign of life that indicates you might have received the ticket, such as looking it up on the county ticket portal. They don't serve you or send it via certified mail. The county courts motioned years ago that they aren't enforcing these tickets. They don't affect your ability to renew your license, register your car, or insurance rates. They don't come up when you get pulled over for anything else. It is basically a scam to support the traffic ticket company out of state hoping you pay them and sustain their business model.
jamiek882 hours ago
Except current immigration enforcement. Ignoring that is enough to have citizenship denied. Just happened to a friend of mine in Houston. Culture is to ignore, courts ignore, police don’t see it. USCIS do.
testplzignore4 hours ago
The NSA would presumably have all of this.
From a taxpayer perspective, it's such a waste to have multiple agencies doing their own unconstitutional surveillance. Why have two Ministries of Love when one would do? :)
irishcoffee3 hours ago
This is the purview of the FBI. The NSA is focused on the rest of the world.
Is there overlap? Sure. But the amount of disinformation on the website about the FBI vs the NSA is comical. If anything, when people say “NSA” they really mean “CIA” and just don’t understand the difference.
cucumber37328423 hours ago
>The NSA is focused on the rest of the world.
In the same way that the CIA doesn't sell cocaine.
I'm sure they "mostly" focus externally but that doesn't mean they're not still doing a hell of a lot domestically.
convolvatron2 hours ago
recently there has been some football and stopgap in congress about reauthorizing the patriot act permissions for the NSA to collect any communications where one endpoint is out of the country. so that's at least widely recognized and 'legal'
irishcoffee2 hours ago
I covered this with: "Is there overlap? Sure."
The FBI is the boogeyman everyone around these parts wants the NSA to be. The NSA has the skillset, they just don't use it like that, domestically.
That was my point. Carry on. I don't mind if you agree or not.
joquarky36 minutes ago
> The NSA has the skillset, they just don't use it like that, domestically.
That seems like a statement that needs backed up by sources.
irishcoffee24 minutes ago
Fat chance. I don’t care if you believe me. I’m not lying to you.
mothballed19 minutes ago
I believe you but this seems far more like HSI territory, who are comfortable, able, and excessively willing to overstep rights of both citizens and foreigners. They're also an underestimated agency that IIRC is larger than the FBI.
chaps4 hours ago
Presumably it's a system that can be viewed from a phone or from dispatch remotely right? All they'd have to do is share the credentials and that's that.
dayofthedaleks4 hours ago
It already goes to your local DHS Fusion Center.
masfuerte4 hours ago
By offering money?
giantg24 hours ago
Or withholding money (grants).
Zigurd2 hours ago
Not that it will help for long distance travel, but if I was running strategy for the big E-bike cartel, I couldn't think of a better meme to promote than the surveillance state getting a chubby about ALPRs.
Seriously, though, I think the Karens out there want E-bike licensed just so cops can keep hassling brown people even when they're not driving clapped out old Toyotas.
dawnerd2 hours ago
ALPRs, from Flock in particular, track more than license plates. They've installed Flock cameras on pedestrian paths even.
LocalH3 hours ago
If they do, doesn't that make the companies running those readers agents of the state during the collaboration?
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scholarnet-AI4 hours ago
I believe technology is great but we must regulate to assure personal privacy is maintained.
nazgulsenpai3 hours ago
I don't think regulators (government) protecting the people from the FBI (government) is going to work out.
cute_boi4 hours ago
I think we can’t easily choose both, because these agencies will portray it as something they need in order to help children.
bpoyner3 hours ago
They'll also need it to track down terrorists. And who determines who is a terrorist? Why, the department of justice does.
baggachipz4 hours ago
I had already assumed that they were using Flock data for exactly this. I guess paying to speed the nationwide rollout makes it official and will free them from pesky courts and human rights.
delichon4 hours ago
It's not that they don't have access but that they don't have legal access that they can use as leverage. Parallel construction is a pain in the ass. They're buying the right to use it in court.
goolz3 hours ago
Exactly. It is not that they are not already spying on all of us; they are. Or that they cannot already nail you for something. It is that they need a way to launder their evidence so that it is kosher come prosecution.
charcircuit3 hours ago
This information can be critical for understanding the movement of vehicles and can benefit law enforcement giving them more evidence and knowledge to work off of. As long as these systems are accurate and not being maliciously tampered with it keeps everyone accountable to their actions.
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__MatrixMan__2 hours ago
Corrupt government officials use this data to kidnap people. Not criminals, just people they don't like. Do you really think that's worth tolerating just because it'll help us catch more actual criminals?
god_n_stuffan hour ago
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black_132 hours ago
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martinbfinean hour ago
Another AI click bait article. Fake news. And a conspiracy theory.
darkstar999an hour ago
If you make a claim like that you should back it up in some way.
NoMoreNicksLeft3 hours ago
Does anyone sell am eInk display that's 12"x6"? Doesn't have to be color, though bonus points for that...
__MatrixMan__2 hours ago
Installing a license plate flipper, digital or mechanical, is likely more illegal than just putting bags over the readers.
Source: https://legalclarity.org/are-license-plate-flipper-devices-i...
lanrat3 hours ago
Something like this? https://reviver.com/
kylehotchkiss3 hours ago
I equate these license plates with terrible money management skills. $900 for a license plate: "a fool and his money are soon parted" regardless of what income bracket they're in
NoMoreNicksLeft3 hours ago
Nah, I was thinking a raw eInk panel. Not one controlled by the state. One that can flip the numbers for 2 seconds, while driving past the surveillance cameras but be back on my real license plate number immediately just in case there are any cops watching. Hell, I could even run recognition against the rear dash cam, so that it overrides a flip if there are recognizable cop cars within view. Could be fun.
hdgvhicv3 hours ago
James Bond had a solution for this decades ago