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> I wonder what happens if you disable the e-SIM (in the US) and then a safety recall appears via software update - do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?

I would assume so. Even on older cars, service techs can typically manually push firmware updates over the OBD-II / J2534 port. Rivian's OBD-II port actually hides an Ethernet signal inside of it - so the interface is certainly there.

Fun fact: You can buy an Ethernet adapter directly from Rivian here to connect to the car's internal network: https://rivianservicetools.com/Catalog/Product/TSN00535-300-...

This is tangential, but Kia declined to cover an engine failure, under warranty that was extended by recall, because I had not done an update.

Edit: I eventually recovered most of the cost via a settlement court.

> do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?

I get some updates OTA, but the dealer has to install some others, and when I took it there they updated it with a USB stick.

I wonder what happens if they issue a recall that you want to refuse.

What if they did the EV equivalent of Dieselgate[1]? Say it has a dangerous amount of torque or something, but you like that.

Could you just turn off the network and keep it in the desired (unsupported) state?

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

"a lot of people don't know this; for almost any ICE car in the US, you can buy a 3-day or 1-week subscription to the dealership level diagnostic software for a somewhat reasonable fee and use it with a J2534 device"

Whoa, didn't know that. Well the caveat is finding a decent J2534 device, right? There are a lot of cheapo knockoffs. Then actually knowing how to use the software with it.

My experience is J2534 support is sketchy and if you want to do the things you actually want to do you need a manufacturer approved device with an insane markup. Also the subscriptions are insanely expensive, not even close to reasonable and you need to be a company (at least you used to be with Ford last time I checked, but they accept the UK or Dutch royal residence as a valid company location so there is that...)

...do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?

Of course they do. It would be absolutely silly not to. And in the case of safety recalls, their duty to inform you would entail a more traditional and substantiated disclosure i.e. a letter.

What ever happened to take it to a dealer or authorized repair place to have it done? While I may be willing to take certain things apart that, the one thing in life I have resisted is any kind of monkeying with my car. There are certain things where I'm willing to accept that I took it apart and it no longer works because I bricked it, shorted something, or otherwise damaged it beyond my skill set to undo. My car is not one of them. However, I also do not want my car to be under the direct control of someone else that can decide I can no longer operate my car. If there's an update, I'll bring it in to have someone trained/responsible for that update.

I wonder what happens if you disable the e-SIM (in the US) and then a safety recall appears via software update - do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?

Yes.

You get a letter in the mail asking you to take your car to the dealer so they can install the update.

Been there. Done this.

WiFi. Flip it on for an update, then leave it off.

> do dealers have any way to update control modules besides OTA?

Yes.

What's special about EVs that gives them this loophole? Is it something to do with not having dealerships and going direct to consumer?

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Ignoring the fact that it's absolutely unhinged and bonkers to include that in the first place, I don't even understand how they could possibly ever get any information about that. Are they using LLMs to generate these policies without review? Or are there really lawyers out there who thought this was pertinent and important to include?

I wonder how Slate ( https://slate.auto ) will rate when production begins? I suspect poorly as it's a Bezos property.

Main reason why I will never buy an EV, and keep driving my Internet-free Honda until it dies, which will likely be after me.

Do it like china does with iphones. Apple sells them but icloud in china is controlled fully by a chinese company owned and operated by chinese citizens.

While this does not fully prevent backdoors and hacking it does raise the bar quite a lot.

The president of a country disable another country's cars to push a trade deal because he was in a bad mood?

What an utterly ludicrous and silly notion.

Is what I would've said two years ago.

I wish it was two years ago.

Less internet connection in cars?

Firefox also has a setting like this, although I think it's even nicer in that it makes everything (current and future) AI default to opt-out, but still lets you opt in to specific use cases if you want.

Zed is one of the best editors I've ever seen, I always worried the mention of AI would put off people who are missing out on a truly amazing editor.

VSCode has this too: chat.disableAIFeatures

Sources:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46501220

https://code.visualstudio.com/updates/v1_104#_hide-and-disab...

Exactly. It's extremely annoying.

As someone who got into a rollover accident which ended with my car upside down on a freeway, hearing only the onstar person talking to me while half conscious, this is sad.

I do distinctely remember strongly disliking the user agreement I signed for the "internet connected" features of the car when I bought it. 100% rubbed me the wrong way and I couldn't' find a way to opt out, and I wasn't so motivated to physically remove it from my new car. Thankfully.

Shouldn't have to trade privacy for safety.

> Kudos to Rivian for making this a supported user privacy feature.

Same. This is the first thing that I've ever read that makes me think I might be willing to buy a modern vehicle.

Similar I got a new 2025 4runner last summer and...

A: never once installed the app or registered an account, which flummoxxed the salesman so much he argued with me for 10 minutes trying to say that I had to set up the app to even take delivery, even though I paid cash in full. He even cried to mama (the manager) to find out what to do about this impossible situation. In the end, of course you do not actually need to install the app, even temporarily just for a one-time setup, or even register an account. But MAN do they want you to.

B: Within a few weeks found that someone makes a kit that lets you completely disconnect the telemetry & internet functionality module while providing some pass-through connections that normally go through that box.

Apparently in this case all the bad stuff is conveniently in one box you can disconnect, and still have normal bluetooth for android auto, apple car play, or plain bluetooth headset & media. So still have gps & media on the console stcreen. I can only assume that this won't stay so convenient. They could have anything require anything else any time they want.

They do offer an official way to disable all internet features (remote start from your phone from any distance, remote vehicle monitor, tracking/shutdown, etc), but all that does is disable the useful functions for you, while not disabling any of the functions they use for themselves. It's still actively logging and uploading data, and they still have the ability to remotely track and even disable the vehicle.

I've been to the dealer (different from purchase) once for a free oil change and they didn't say anything. So idk if they even tried to do any updates, or they have some other way to do it or what.

https://www.autoharnesshouse.com/store/AHH-DCM77

They've fixed that in later models, disconnecting the module disables the dash now.

But don't worry, the FTC is out to protect you. Their settlement with GM says that can only sell your name attached to zipcode resolution location data and only sell your precise location trace attached to an opaque ID rather than your name.

I believe the "advanced" LKAS on Rivian only works on highways and relies on an "up to date" geofencing database, so that's the first-order technical reason. And I'm sure they don't exactly prioritize fixing or altering that behavior for the other reason.

I understand how it could disable some features. Hyundai has a GPS-assisted database of highways that are approved for enhanced driver assist (HDA2).

Lane keeping is often hard to disable and you have to do it each and every drive, so getting that off permanently and putting the car offline then that is an unexpected bonus. Probably the same also applies for the speed limit beeper that partially relies on GPS maps. Taping over the front camera also works.

Toyota advanced LKA (called Traffic Jam Assist) requires mapping subscription to be active as well

> Disabling internet connectivity disables lane keeping assistance

Good. Lane Keeping Assist should be illegal.

So you disable both internet and the most annoying feature after touchscreens and start stop. Double win.

>disables lane keeping assistance

That is a desirable outcome.

I have driven about half a dozen vehicles with this feature, and it has been annoying 100% of the time, and never helpful at all. In the company van I drive (Citroën Berlingo) I have to disable it every time I start the car. The lane keeping gets confused all the time by snow or dirt or when merging onto the motorway, or fucking background radiation - I dunno. It always shocks me when it pulls on the steering wheel. This crap should be forbidden. In the same car I also have to disable the start-stop system so as not to destroy the engine. Aside from that it's a nice enough van for a diesel, but I've been ruined by electrics.

In my own car (Nissan Leaf 2021), it stays disabled. But then it shows me a lawyer screen on every start asking me to consent to handing over my first born son etc.

Imagine if proper EV's had been invented in 2005 - we would have had some awesome cars.

If you need lane keeping assistance you should just accept you need internet connectivity at all times like wtf cars didn’t always have that just drive straight.

Lane keeping assistance is optional on any vehicle. I don't believe there is any current production in which you can't opt out of lane keeping assistance?

You have a lot of trouble driving your car inside the lanes?

They need to keep lane availability up to date - lanes get closed for repair or realignment sometimes and it’d suck to rear-end an 18 ton grader because you don’t have current DOT info…

The same reason Windows only respects users choices in Europe, they make more money with the settings elsewhere in the world and will only change unless regulated.

> In the EEA, Windows will always use customers’ configured app default settings for link and file types, including industry standard browser link types (http, https).

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2023/11/16/preview...

I don't know for certain, but likely because they are required to. There are lots of other examples where companies will only abide by regulations in places where it's required rather than applying it generally. A common example in Canada is with things like lotteries, coupons, or returns - many things exempt Quebec because it's not allowed there, but the companies still place that burden on everyone else they can.

I can recommend the VW e-UP!s from 2013-2016ish. They have very little tech in them but are relatively modern. You can also quite easily tap into the control systems (climate etc) to remote control it with your own hardware: https://docs.openvehicles.com/en/latest/components/vehicle_v...

They are also super fun to drive and, although they have small batteries, the can charge at 40-50kWh, which translates to 10 minutes to ~85% full. We have used a eUP 2013 model to travel across europe (~900km) in two days, many times! One charge last between one and two hours, depending on speed and weather. We usually cruse at about 90km/h, and the car is basically sipping electrons! The newer model have double the range, but I have not owned or testet them, but might be a decent compromise for longer travels.

I read the upcoming slate truck might be that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_Truck

https://www.slate.auto

Unlike most vehicles sold in the United States, the Slate Truck is not expected to have any in-car entertainment system; instead, customers are expected to use their own mobile device for audio streaming, navigation, and over-the-air updates for their trucks.

What's your current ICE car? If it's a fairly simple front wheel drive platform you can probably transplant the battery and traction pack from a Nissan Leaf or similar into it.

Incidentally if you can get enough cold water into it you can get around 150bhp out of a first-gen Nissan Leaf motor for a few seconds, which is really all you're going to need.

There's a guy in the south of England who makes tubular steel spaceframe chassis replacements for VW Beetles, that are compatible with most kit car bodies. Instead of taking a hard-to-get Beetle engine and gearbox they take an MGF engine and gearbox, but I bet you could cram your Leaf motors and batteries in. There you go, now you're running around town in a ridiculously quick electric beach buggy. How cool is that?

I think they know only a small percentage will actually turn it off, the data they get from the other 90% is worth the good will you get from the 10% that opt out. It’s a fair trade off

I'm pretty sure they mean across the whole nation. The entire internet is disabled.

Any connectivity at all is telemetry. The connection itself reveals where you are. Navigation reveals where you are down to the meter, along with everywhere you've been, where you're going, speed, etc. What else are you worried about if not that?

what telemetry are you worried about if you're already sharing your exact location at all times (navigation)

Exactly. Any software toggle can un-toggle itself.

You're reading too much into the editorialized title, this is a FAQ for Can I disable all data collection from my vehicle?

Lane keeping assist likely (a) shares data back to Rivian, and (b) depends on GPS and (live) map data to know location specific settings.. that there are 4 lanes on this road and the left 2 lead somewhere else (etc). Line detection (on-device) isn't always reliable (snow, rain, ice, mud, gravel, construction)

I find it ridiculous navigation would require always-on internet connectivity. Seems a regression from the offline TomTom devices from the past.

Mods renamed it

Yes, no credit if I have to ask someone to turn it off for me. It could obviously be a toggle here in the US.

Because Rivian doesn't have a mode for _just_ lane-keeping. There's Adaptive Cruise Control (which maintains speed) and there's Highway Assist (which maintains speed and position in the lane). Highway Assist only works on certain mapped highways.

Are either privacy breaches or remote attacks really still in any way theoretical dangers? There have been numerous demonstrations of vehicles or their occupants being monitored, disrupted, or stolen as a direct result of the modern remote/online tech they usually come with now. I know quite a few people - myself included - who are wary of buying any new car that has all this junk tech built in and prefer to stick with older models for now.

Or trying to get ahead of competition such as slate.

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My understanding is that Rivian’s lane keeping (and other features like it) are only possible because of driving data collected to train their models.

It’s not such a stretch to believe that there’s some aspect of this that is specific to a driver or to a vehicle, and so requires that they collect your data. Even if this is not accurate, I can see a business making the decision that, given they need more and more data to improve the model, they would not allow customers to opt-out of that training cohort and still use the feature. Incentives etc.

Directionally though, I am with you on auto telematics data collection; I am not sure you can even buy a new car in the US that doesn’t ship with tracking, and many manufacturers (like the one who makes my car) don’t allow opt out at all. Fcking Stellantis

If you mean the self-driving part specifically, apparently Comma AI already does this: https://comma.ai/

So you're okay with every single company being able to track you, build a profile to you, and sell that profile to the highest bidder, while you get nothing remotely comparable in value?

So why would you prefer goggle's "control the user experience" power-tripping, to rivian's?

I'd much rather side with the company that was willing to allow the user to disable net connectivity...

They could store data and then dump it later when the vehicle is being serviced. Unless their privacy states otherwise, assume data is being gathered and sold. Other car manufactures have been caught selling travel data. It's not even that paranoid. Google has been fined in the past for secretly collecting location data in Android when offline and then relaying it back to HQ once the phone got a signal.

How would they do that? I'm sure you can buy some sort of aerospace component that has the signal integrity to do radios, but it sounds expensive. There's a reason these kinds of components (e.g. muxes) aren't usually physical disconnections.

Automotive power relays are at least a thing, but they're expensive consumables that have significant power draw.

In either case they would have had to add the components at design time and do the physical validation/testing, not ship it as a software update.

Kinda rich coming from someone who doesn't even have a valid SSL cert on the website in their profile bio...

> disable the eSIM card in the vehicle

Disabling a SIM card almost certainly means no connection to the network.