Hacker News

Pretty much the definition of a “career limiting event”

They were probably using AI, so it's good.

Are you sure? Are you $150 million ARR sure? Are you $150 million ARR, you'd really like to keep your job, you're not going to accidentally leave a hole or blow up something else, sure?

I agree, mostly, but I'm also really glad I don't have to put out this fire. Cheering them on from the sidelines, though!

Letting ancient evil code run? Have we learned nothing from A Fire Upon the Deep?!

True but it does say something that such a script was able to lie dormant for so long.

It's a mediawiki feature: there's a set of pages that get treated as JS/CSS and shown for either all users or specifically you. You do need to be an admin to edit the ones that get shown to all users.

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/JavaScript

Yes, you can have your own JS/CSS that’s injected in every page. This is pretty useful for widgets, editing tools, or to customize the website’s apparence.

Yeah, basemetrika.ru is free now. Should we occupy it? ;)

I wouldn't be surprised either. But the original formatting of the worm makes me think it was human written, or maybe AI assisted, but not 100% AI. It has a lot of unusual stylistic choices that I don't believe an AI would intentionally output.

I mean....elaborate is a stretch.

I would. AI designed software in general does not include novel ideas. And this is the kind of novel software AI is not great at, because there's not much training data.

Of course it's very possible someone wrote it with AI help. But almost no chance it was designed by AI.

At $work we're hosting business knowledge databases. Interestingly enough, if you need to revert a day or two of edits, you're better off to do it asap, over postponing and mulling over it. Especially if you can keep a dump or an export around.

People usually remember what they changed yesterday and have uploaded files and such still around. It's not great, but quite possible. Maybe you need to pull a few content articles out from the broken state if they ask. No huge deal.

If you decide to roll back after a week or so, editors get really annoyed, because now they are usually forced to backtrack and reconcile the state of the knowledge base, maybe you need a current and a rolled-back system, it may have regulatory implications and it's a huge pain in the neck.

Nah, you can snapshot every 15 minutes. The snapshot interval depends on the frequency of changes and their capacity, but it's up to them how to allocate these capacities... but it's definitely doable and there are real reasons for doing so. You can collapse deltas between snapshots after some time to make them last longer. I'd be surprised if they don't do that.

As an aside, snapshotting would have prevented a good deal of horror stories shared by people who give AI access to the FS. Well, as long as you don't give it root.......

No, I think you are mixing something.

- There are constant deface incidents caused by editing of unprotected / semiprotected templates

- There were incidents of UI mistranslation (because MediaWiki translation is crowdsourced)

- The attack that was applied is well know though in Russian community, it is pretty much standard "admin-woodpecker". The standard woodpecker (some people call it neo-woodpecker) renamed all pages with a high speed (I know this since 2007, the name woodpecker appeared many years later); then MediaWiki added throttling for renames; then neo-woodpecker reappeared in different years (usually associated with throttling bypass CVEs). Early admin-woodpeckers were much more destructive (destroyed a dozens of mediawiki websites due to lack of backups). Nuking admin woodpecker it quite a boring one, but I think (I hope) there are some AbuseFilter guardrails configured to prevent complex woodpeckers.

- The attack initiator is 100% a well known user; there are not too many users who applied woodpecker in the first place; not too many "upyachka" fans (which indicates that user edited before 2010 - back then active editors knew each other much better). But it is quite pointless to discuss who exactly the initiator is.

- Wikireality page is hijacked by a small group and does not represent the reality.

I think autofill-based credential harvesting is harder than it sounds because browsers and password managers treat saved credentials as a separate trust boundary, and every vendor implements different heuristics. The tricky part is getting autofill to fire without a real user gesture and then exfiltrating values, since many browsers require exact form attributes or a user activation and several managers ignore synthetic events.

If an attacker wanted passwords en masse they could inject fake login forms and try to simulate focus and typing, but that chain is brittle across browsers, easy to detect and far lower yield than stealing session tokens or planting persistent XSS. Defenders should assume autofill will be targeted and raise the bar with HttpOnly cookies, SameSite=strict where practical, multifactor auth, strict Content Security Policy plus Subresource Integrity, and client side detection that reports unexpected DOM mutations.

Chrome doesnt actually autofill before you interact. It only displays what it would fill in at the same location visually.

Time to add 2FA...

works for me

It's a political issue. Editors are unwilling or unable to contribute to development of the features they need to edit.

Unfortunately, Wikipedia is run on insecure user scripts created by volunteers that tend to be under the age of 18.

There might be more editors trying to resume boost if editing Wikipedia under your real name didn't invite endless harassment.

Wikipedia doesn't even spend donation of Wikipedia anymore.

Sounds more like a political issue this. Can't buy your way out of that.

My understanding is that Wikipedia receives more donations than they need, surely they have the resources to fix it themselves?

Yeah, wikipedia has its own user script system, and that was what was disabled.

The sitewide JavaScript/CSS is an editable Wiki page.

You can also upload scripts to be shared and executed by other users.

This is apparently not done browser side but server side.

As in, user can upload whatever they wish and it will be shown to them and ran, as JS, fully privileged and all.

Most admins on Wikipedia are competent in areas outside of webdev and security.

Wikipedia admins are not IT admins, they're more like forum moderators or admins on a free phpBB 2 hosting service in 2005. They don't have "admin" access to backend systems. Those are the WMF sysadmins.

The dump of english wikipedia is 26gb compressed and completely usable with that compressed format plus a small index file.

That's small enough to live on most people's phones. It's small enough to be a single BluRay. Maybe Wikipedia should fund some mass printings.

What you do not get however is any media. No sounds, images, videos, drawings, examples, 3D artifacts, etc etc etc. This is a huge loss on many many many topics.

> Haven't we hit that point already with bad faith (and potentially government-run) coordinated editing […] campaigns,

Yes, this is a real phenomenon. See, for instance, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Wikipedia%E2%80%93...: the examples from 2006 are funny, and the article's subject matter just gets sadder and sadder as the chronology goes on.

> and voting campaigns

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Wikipedia is not a democracy.

> as both Wales and Sanger have been pointing out

{{fv}}. Neither of those essays make this point. The closest either gets is Sanger's first thesis, which misunderstands the "support / oppose" mechanism. Ironically, his ninth thesis says to introduce voting, which would create the "voting campaign" vulnerability!

These are both really bad takes, which I struggle to believe are made in good faith, and I'm glad Wikipedians are mostly ignoring them. (I have not read the third link you provided, because Substack.)

Not the GP, and I don't believe in the existence of "common facts" in general, but Wikipedia is indeed a good place to figure out what other people might agree as common facts...

Are they really lost though? I think they should not be lost; they could be stored in a separate database additionally.

Filesystem & database snapshots are very cheap to make, you can make them every 15 minutes. You can expire old snapshots (or collapse the deltas between them) depending on the storage requirements.

There is nothing to do, the incident was not caused by a vulnerability in mediawiki.

Basically someone who had permissions to alter site js, accidentally added malicious js. The main solution is to be very careful about giving user accounts permission to edit js.

[There are of course other hardening things that maybe should be done based on lessons learned]

How does 2FA prevent this here?

It's not, application logic exposed on the client side is always an attack vector for figuring out how it works and how attack vectors could be devised.

It's simply a calculated risk.

How much business and application logic you put in your Javascript is critical.

On your second unrelated comment about Wikipedia needing to use 2FA, there's probably a better way to do it and I hope mediawiki can do it.

Ok, fair point. I presumed that this crowd would be far more familiar with the capabilities of HTML5 and dynamic pages sans js than most. (Surely more familiar than I, who only dabble in code by comparison.)

No, I'm not suggesting we all go back to purely-static web pages, imagemap gifs and server side navigation. But you're going to have a hard time convincing me that I really truly need to execute code of unknown provenance in my this-app-does-everything-for-me process just to display a few pages of text and 5 jpegs.

And for the record, I've called myself a Technologist for almost 30 years now. If I were a closet Luddite I'd be one of the greatest hypocrites of human history. :-)

> I mean, if websites work for you while disabling js and you are fine with it. Then I mean JS is an threat vector somewhat

It's also been torture, I definitely don't prescribe it. :P Like you say, it's a sanity / utility / security tradeoff. I just happen to be willing to trade off sanity for utility and security.

And yes, unfortunately I have to enable JS for some sites -- the default is to leave it disabled. And of course with cloudflare I have to whitelist it specifically for their domains (well, the non analytics domains). But thankfully wikipedia is light and spiffy without the javascript.

What is uncomfortable about Librewolf? I thought it was basically FF without telemetry and UBO already baked in?

I opened his post history and scrolled down a bit and literally the first thing I saw was a comment starting with "You're absolutely right" lol

Yeah, it's like the really high-energy way it's written or something? Can't quite put my finger on it.

The fact of this obvious LLM slop being at the top of this discussion is incredibly insidious. The "facts" it mentions are made up. Has this vapid style finally become so normalized that nobody is seeing it anymore?

Also the language that runs half of the web.

Also the language that has made me millions over my career with no degree.

Also the language that allows people to be up and running in seconds (with or without AI).

I could go on.

FWIW this was fixed in 2020

Except that in a contemporary PHP that doesn't work any more.

  PHP Warning:  Uncaught Error: Undefined constant "flase" in php shell code:1

If I had to guess it's the typical "people with power behaving like dicks".

What's the operating budget for other websites with comparable traffic? Without context $185 million seems like a lot, but compared to what? Reddit's operating budget for the same timeframe was $1.86 billion.

I think the question might be how much money, effort, and expertise is going into the platform itself.

On what? I'd be curious to read more (documented sources)

Actually, usage of primary sources is kinda complicated [0], generally Wikipedia prefers secondary and tertiary sources.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research...

You may be interested in https://geminiprotocol.net/

I mean sure, but that's never going to happen, so complaining about it is just shaking your fist at the sky. The only way it will change is if the economics of the web change. Maybe that is the economics of developer time (it being easier/fast/more resilient and thus cheaper to do native dev), or maybe it is that dynamic scripting leads to such extreme vulnerabilities that ease of deployment/development/consumer usage change the macroeconomics of web deployment enough to shift the scales to local.

But if there's one thing I've learned over the years as a technologist, it's this: the "best technology" is not often the "technology that wins".

Engineering is not done in a vacuum. Indeed, my personal definition of engineering is that it is "constraint-based applied science". Yes, some of those constraints are "VC buxx" wanting to see a return on investment, but even the OSS world has its own set of constraints - often overlapping. Time, labor, existing infrastructure, domain knowledge.

Imagine if wikipedia was a native app, what this vuln would have caused. I for one prefer using stuff in the browser where at least it's sandboxed. Also, there's nothing stopping you from disabling JS in your browser.