OptionOfT26 minutes ago
> ... > On the third loop iteration, the backing store of size 2 is full. append again has to allocate a new backing store, this time of size 4. The old backing store of size 2 is now garbage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a worst-case scenario? realloc can, iirc, extend in place. Your original pointer is still invalid then, but no copy is needed then.
Unless I'm missing something?
Equally, what happens to the ordering of variables on the stack? Is this new one pushed as the last one? Or is there space kept open?
E.g.:
var tasks []task
var other_var intcsjhan hour ago
Optimizations like these are so cool. I love seeing higher level languages take advantage of their high level-ness
nasretdinov3 hours ago
Nice to see common and natural patterns to have their performance improved. Theoretically appending to a slice would be possible to handle with just stack growth, but that would require having large gaps between goroutine stacks and mapping them lazily upon access instead of moving goroutines to the new contiguous blocks as it's implemented right now. But given how many questionable changes it requires from runtime it's certainly not going to happen :)
ivanjermakov3 hours ago
Having big stack frames is bad for cache locality. Stack is not something magical, it's mapped to the same physical memory as heap and needs to be loaded. Pretty sure such optimization would reduce performance in most cases.
wahernan hour ago
In the case where you're using the top of the stack as a, well, stack, I don't see the problem. It would only work if you're not interleaving processing of dynamically-sized objects and function codegen works out. It's similar to TCO in the sense of maintaining certain invariants across calls (e.g. no temporaries need be preserved), and actually in languages with TCO, like Lua, you can hack an application-level stack data structure using tail recursion (and coroutines/threads if you need more than one) that can sometimes be more performant or more convenient than using a native data structure.
There's been a least one experiment (posted a few years ago to HN) where someone benchmarked a stackful coroutine implementation with hundreds of thousands (millions?) of stacks that could grow contiguously on-demand up to, e.g., 2MB, but were initially minimally sized and didn't reserve the maximum stack size upfront. The bottleneck was the VMA bookkeeping--the syscalls, exploding the page table, TLB flushing, etc. In principle it could work well and be even more performant than existing solutions, and it might work better today since Linux 6.13's lightweight guard page feature, MADV_GUARD_INSTALL, but we probably still need more architectural support from the system (kernel, if not hardware) to make it performant and competitive with language-level solutions like goroutines, Rust async, etc.
HarHarVeryFunny3 hours ago
This article is about Go, but I wonder how many C/C++ developers realize that you've always had the ability to allocate on the stack using alloca() rather than malloc().
Of course use cases are limited (variable length buffers/strings, etc) since the lifetime of anything on the stack has to match the lifetime of the stack frame (i.e the calling function), but it's super fast since it's just bumping up the stack pointer.
spacechild13 hours ago
alloca() is super useful, but it's also quite dangerous because you can easily overflow the stack.
The obvious issue is that you can't know how much space is left on the stack, so you basically have to guess and pick an arbitrary "safe" size limit. This gets even more tricky when functions may be called recursively.
The more subtle issue is that the stack memory returned by alloca() has function scope and therefore you must never call it directly in a loop.
I use alloca() on a regular basis, but I have to say there are safer and better alternatives, depending on the particular use case: arena/frame allocators, threadlocal pseudo-stacks, static vectors, small vector optimizations, etc.
12_throw_away3 hours ago
> The obvious issue is that you can't know how much space is left on the stack [...]
Oh, huh. I've never actually tried it, but I always assumed it would be possible to calculate this, at least for a given OS / arch. You just need 3 quantities, right? `remaining_stack_space = $stack_address - $rsp - $system_stack_size`.
But I guess there's no API for a program to get its own stack address unless it has access to `/proc/$pid/maps` or similar?
chuckadams2 hours ago
If your API includes inline assembly, then it's trivial. Go's internals would need it to swap stacks like it does. But I doubt any of that is exposed at the language level.
Joker_vD2 hours ago
> $system_stack_size
Does such thing even exist? And non-64 bit platforms the address space is small enough that with several threads of execution you may just be unable to grow your stack even up to $system_stack_size because it'd bump into something else.
masklinn2 hours ago
> Does such thing even exist?
AFAIK no. There are default stack sizes, but they're just that, defaults, and they can vary on the same system: main thread stacks are generally 8MiB (except for Windows where it's just 1) but the size of ancillary stacks is much smaller everywhere but on linux using glibc.
It should be possible to get the stack root and size using `pthread_getattr_np`, but I don't know if there's anyone bothering with that, and it's a glibc extension.
MarkSweep2 hours ago
.NET bothers with it, to support RuntimeHelpers.EnsureSufficientExecutionStack [1] and other things. See the pthreads calls used to here [2].
[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.runtime....
[2]: https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/blob/b6a3e784f0bb418fd2fa7...
fluntcapsan hour ago
You can do something like:
void *get_sp(void) {
volatile char c;
return (void *)&c;
}
void *get_sp(void) {
return __builtin_frame_address(0);
}
[deleted]2 hours agocollapsed
wat1000034 minutes ago
It's certainly possible on some systems. Even then, you have to fudge, as you don't know exactly how much stack space you need to save for other things.
Stack memory is weird in general. It's usually a fixed amount determined when the thread starts, with the size typically determined by vibes or "seems to work OK." Most programmers don't have much of a notion of how much stack space their code needs, or how much their program needs overall. We know that unbounded non-tail recursion can overflow the stack, but how about bounded-but-large? At what point do you need to start considering such things? A hundred recursive calls? A thousand? A million?
It's all kind of sketchy, but it works well enough in practice, I suppose.
norir2 hours ago
If you have well defined boundaries, you can move the stack to an arbitrarily large chunk of memory before the recursive call and restore it to the system stack upon completion.
chuckadams2 hours ago
And if you never do reach completion, you can just garbage collect that chunk. AKA "Cheney on the MTA": https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/214448.214454
cyberax25 minutes ago
> alloca() is super useful, but it's also quite dangerous because you can easily overflow the stack.
This is not a problem for Go, because it has resizable stacks.
anematode3 hours ago
If you're not doing recursion, I prefer using an appropriately sized thread_local buffer in this scenario. Saves you the allocation and does the bookkeeping of having one per thread
rwmj3 hours ago
Most C compilers let you use variable length arrays on the stack. However they're problematic and mature code bases usually disable this (-Werror -Wvla) because if the size is derived from user input then it's exploitable.
dzdtan hour ago
For purely historical reasons the C/C++ stack is "small" with exactly how small being outside of programmer control. So you have to avoid using the stack even if it would be the better solution. Otherwise you risk your program crashing/failing with stack overflow errors.
csjhan hour ago
What do you mean outside of programmer control? What's stopping you from setting the stack size in the linker flags?
HarHarVeryFunnyan hour ago
With Linux the stack size is a process limit, set with ulimit (default 8MB?). You can even set it to unlimited if you want, meaning that essentially (but not quite) the stack and heap grow towards each other only limited by the size of the address space.
ulimit only affects the main program stack though. if you are using multi-threading then there is a per-thread stack limit, which you can configure with pthreads, but not until C++23 for std::thread.
ozgrakkurt3 hours ago
This is more of a patch/hack solution as far as I can understand.
You can just as well pass a heap allocated buffer + size around and allocate by incrementing/decrementing size.
Or even better use something like zig's FixedSizeAllocator.
Correct me if I am wrong please
HarHarVeryFunny3 hours ago
I wouldn't call it a hack, but it's not a general alternative for memory allocated on the heap since the lifetime is tied to that of the allocating function.
I think what you're referring to is an arena allocator where you allocate a big chunk of memory from the heap, then sequentially sub-allocate from that, then eventually free the entire heap chunk (arena) in one go. Arena allocators are therefore also special use case since they are for when all the sub-allocations have the same (but arbitrary) lifetime, or at least you're willing to defer deallocation of everything to the same time.
So, heap, arena and stack allocation all serve different purposes, although you can just use heap for everything if memory allocation isn't a performance issue for your program, which nowadays is typically the case.
Back in the day when memory was scarce and computers were much slower, another common technique was to keep a reuse "free list" of allocated items of a given type/size, which was faster than heap allocate and free/coalesce, and avoided the heap fragmentation of random malloc/frees.
stackghost3 hours ago
alloca()'s availability and correctness/bugginess is platform dependent, so it probably sees only niche usage since it's not portable. Furthermore, even its man page discourages its use in the general case:
>The alloca() function is machine- and compiler-dependent. Because it allocates from the stack, it's faster than malloc(3) and free(3). In certain cases, it can also simplify memory deallocation in applications that use longjmp(3) or siglongjmp(3). Otherwise, its use is discouraged.
Furthermore:
>The alloca() function returns a pointer to the beginning of the allocated space. If the allocation causes stack overflow, program behavior is undefined.
lstodd2 hours ago
It becames super slow when you bump that pointer into a page that's missing from the TLB.
HarHarVeryFunny2 hours ago
A TLB miss could happen when executing the next statement in your program. It's not something you have a lot of control over, and doesn't change the fact that allocating from the stack (when an option) is going to be faster than allocating from the heap.
lstoddan hour ago
So you don't allocate left and right, be it stack or heap.
It's all useless though unless you control the hardware. If you don't, you might as well prlimit --stack=unlimited and have at it.
anematode3 hours ago
Awesome stuff! Does Go have profile-guided optimization? I'm wondering whether a profile could hint to the compiler how large to make the pre-reserved stack space.
tptacek3 hours ago
Yep. `go build -pgo=foo.pprof`
bertylicious3 hours ago
Nice! That's (seems) so simple yet also so very effective. Shouldn't other memory-managed languages be able to profit from this as well?
[deleted]3 hours agocollapsed
lionkor2 hours ago
C# has `stackalloc`
bertylicious2 hours ago
But that requires an explicit declaration and isn't done automatically under the hood, or am I missing something?
Smaug123an hour ago
The JIT does this automatically in some cases as of .NET 10 (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/whats-new/dotn...).
lstodd2 hours ago
I read that as "Allocating on the Slack" and immediately came up with three ways how to do that.
zabzonk3 hours ago
alloca() is not part of the C++ standard, and I can't imagine how it could used safely in a C++ environment
mwkaufma3 hours ago
If I had a nickel for every article about avoiding implicit boxing in gc-heap languages...
adonovanan hour ago
...you would have the same balance as before, because this is not an article about implicit boxing. ;-)